Veterans Day is a holiday meant to honor those who have served in the United States armed forces. It is also a day that has historically served as a platform for those outside of the community to offer their thoughts on service -- whether sincere or platitudinous.
On this episode of Fire Watch, we speak to veterans -- ones with unique, distinguished or important backgrounds -- and ask them their thoughts on the day, what phrases like “thank you for your service” mean to them and why it may mean different things to different veterans.
In this episode, you’ll hear from a Navy pilot and son of one of the most influential veterans of our lifetimes; a Silver Star recipient who fought in one of the most infamous and deadly battles of the Afghan War; a Vietnam veteran who has covered military issues for decades; an Iraq War veteran and proud immigrant who defended the U.S. Capitol against rioters on Jan. 6, 2021; a founding leader for Black veteran voices and equity across the country; and a Marine who was relieved of command after she said she took a stand against gender bias in the Corps.
Main Topics
- Drew F. Lawrence introduces Veterans Day and the phrase “thank you for your service.”
- Guests, Jonathan Hill, Jack McCain, Richard Sisk, Kate Germano, Daniel Anderson, Aquilino Gonell discuss what the phrase means to them.
- Drew and co-host Rebecca Kheel speak with Washington Post reporter and Iraq War veteran Alex Horton about his piece: How Black troops lost out in bid to sever Army post’s Confederate ties
Additional Resources
- Veterans Day 2022
- 9 Veterans Who Made Headlines This Year
- 14 Iconic Photos of Veterans and the Wars They Fought
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Transcript:
SPEAKERS
Drew Lawrence, Jonathan Hill, Kate Germano, Jack McCain, Aquilino Gonell, Donald Trump, Alex Horton, George W. Bush, Daniele Anderson, Barack Obama, Rebecca Kheel, Richard Sisk
George W. Bush
You fought in places from Normandy...to Iwo Jima to Busan to Kaesong to Kuwait, Somalia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq.
Barack Obama
As Commander in Chief, I want every veteran to know that America will always honor your service and your sacrifice
Donald Trump
As Commander in Chief of the greatest fighting force on the planet, a force that just spent $2.5 trillion on rebuilding our military. I want to thank you for your service.
Barack Obama
To all our veterans. Thank you for your service.
George W. Bush
I thank you for your service. I thank you for what you've done for the United States of America.
Drew Lawrence
Thank you for your service. Those five words make up a phrase that almost every veteran and service member has heard during their careers or lifetimes, countless think and opinion pieces, books and movies have discussed the subject over the decades, many of which have come to the conclusion that the phrase is merely a hollow platitude, at least when its said without context, but it is more complex than just an empty expression or even at the other end of the opinion, a full throated declaration of support. It is often repeated on Veterans Day, almost always with goodwill, sometimes sincerely but often as a tagline to a speech or salutation is routine is "how are you doing" when said to a stranger. In September, Congressman Jack Bergman, a veteran himself and Congressman Lou Correa introduced a bill to encourage people to say thank you for our freedom instead. Neither Bergman nor Correa agreed to join us for this episode. And while some veterans may have appreciated the effort, and many more felt that the phrase presents a similarly stilted hollowness as its predecessor. The bill highlights a conversation about military gratitude and how we show it. The term thank you for your service means something different to different veterans, as often as they are sometimes portrayed to be the veteran community is not monolithic in its beliefs, experiences, how they talk to others about their service. Some are uncomfortable talking about their military experience. Some love talking about their service. Many oscillate in a gray area that depends on who they're talking to, where they are, how safe they feel, or how genuine the engagement seems to be. On this episode of Fire Watch, we talked to several veterans who show that the phrase, Veterans Day and even service in general varies from person to person...experience to experience. You'll hear from a Navy helicopter pilot and son of one of the most influential veterans of our lifetimes, a Silver Star recipient who fought in one of the most infamous and deadly battles of the Afghan War, a Vietnam veteran who has covered military issues for decades in Iraq War veteran and proud immigrant who defended the Capitol against rioters on January 6 2021, a founding leader for Black veteran voices and equity across the country and a Marine who was relieved of command after she said she took a stand against gender bias in the Corps. For Military.com, my name is Drew Lawrence. It is Veterans Day, Nov. 11. And this is Fire Watch.
My name is Jonathan Hill. I'm a retired 1st Sergeant in the United States Army. I spent 21 years in service and I've been deployed in multiple places both peacekeeping operations and combat, most notably, honestly was the Battle of Kamdesh and COP Keating in Afghanistan in October of 2009. I'm retired now. They told me I was old, grumpy and broken, it was time for me to move on. And now I just do what we call service after service and I try to make sure that veterans and service members and their families get to a better place in life from trouble with either mental health issues or substance use disorders.
Drew Lawrence
Hill's being a bit humble about his military service there, he earned a Silver Star at one of the most harrowing battles during the Afghan War known as the Battle of Kamdesh, perhaps best known for the combat outpost it was fought at COP Keating. He was a platoon sergeant at the time, and according to his citation, he led his platoon under heavy fire, taking shrapnel himself while helping his wounded and leading his men into a counter attack against an overwhelming Taliban force. He even picked up a Latvian sniper rifle and eliminated a Taliban sniper over a football field away. So how does Hill feel when someone says thank you for your service?
Jonathan Hill
I mean, I feel I feel okay. You know, at first it was it was a you know, it was it was, you know, after 911 and we probably heard it more after that than at any other time. And you heard it often, you know, the welcome home ceremonies and and the, you know, caring for our veterans and or service members has been, you know, phenomenal. But it's to me honestly, hearing it now is sort of like, it's like a cliche. It's just you hear it so much, which is a good thing. But it's just like, are you saying it just to say it? Or are you just saying it? Are you being genuine, or you're just saying it because it's a cool thing to say, kind of like calling somebody brother. I mean, I, when I hear it, I certainly appreciate it don't take me wrong, it's it's very appreciative. But there's there's other creative ways that have been said, to sort of say the same thing like thank you for your sacrifice. Thank you for what you've done for our country, thank you for my freedom.
Drew Lawrence
And despite his accolades, both in and out of the uniform, Hill turned that gratitude that was meant for him with the phrase into deference for others.
Jonathan Hill
One of the things that really struck me really hard one time was myself and a couple other veterans were in a small cafe. And we saw a very, very old World War II veteran, and he had been in some significant combat in his time. And you know, he had his brown jumpsuit on and one of those old service, I served in World War II hats, you know, the ones that you see, and we just like, you know, let's walk over and just say hi to him, and to say, thanks, man, thanks for paving the way for us to be who we are today. And, and he really appreciated that. He loved hearing, you know, us saying that, and his wife came back when- we went back over, sat down and finished our meal his wife came over. So the only people that ever come to say, thank you are other veterans. And I was a little disturbed by that. I was like, I would think that a lot more people would be saying, you know, seeing this old guy who was in World War II the greatest generation, and they're not saying that to him. And I was really taken aback by that.
Drew Lawrence
The pivoting of respect was a common thread among the veterans or service members who we spoke to. After describing their initial feelings or reactions about being thanked for their service, they almost immediately shifted the recognition to another group, or another generation of veterans.
Jack McCain
So I'm Jack McCain. I'm a reserve Lieutenant Commander now that flies helicopters on weekends out of Coronado, which is a pretty good gig. My background is I started as a search and rescue pilot in Guam, deployed out of there, and then moved to go teach leadership at the Naval Academy...got bored, decided I wasn't contributing enough and volunteered for assignment in Afghanistan teaching Afghans to fly Blackhawks throughout Kandahar and Helmand. Unfortunately, I pride myself to first think about a joke. I still sometimes do and probably shouldn't. But is, you know, 'hey, thank you for your tax dollars because they funded my adventures.' And with all jokes, there is a little bit of truth in that because without taxpayers support there is no military.
Drew Lawrence
McCain is a Navy pilot, as you just heard, and is the son of the late Senator John McCain, a Vietnam veteran who endured unspeakable tortures as a POW after his plane was shot down over Hanoi in 1967. And when Jack thinks about thank you for your service, he thinks about how the country remembers the line of veterans that came before him, especially on Veterans Day.
Jack McCain
On Veterans Day -- and I don't know why it became this except for maybe my connection to Arizona, but I always choose to kind of remember a specific veteran. And while it would be easy to just say, 'Oh, I remember my dad and my grandfather' -- I think that that's kind of a cop out, not that they weren't great people. But there's a Medal of Honor winner who the namesake of Luke Air Force base that I speak about, and think about every chance I can get named Frank Luke. And if you've never read his story, it's incredible. He was this kind of zeitgeist of the American West, and this brave pilot, but also the child of German immigrants who faced a little bit of adversity in World War I because of that, for obvious reasons. And he was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for some incredible brave and some would say maybe a little crazy actions on the Western Front. And I think that his story, both the connection with Arizona but also this, this idea of being the child of German immigrants and signing up to fight at this time -- and he wasn't drafted he signed up the day that he could is a story to remember. And that whoever that veteran that represents that to you, whether it's a family member, whether it's you know, somebody from your state or just somebody's story, you know, that it's incumbent upon us to tell their story and to tell our own stories. Because that's, that's where we keep our collective memory and that should be something we treasure.
Drew Lawrence
Richard Sisk is a Marine Corps veteran who served in Vietnam, and a purveyor of that collective memory. He has gone on to cover decades of military and veterans issues, including how the public thinks about military service. Sisk is a reporter for us here and Military.com. And he's talking now about what it was like for Vietnam veterans coming back from their war.
Richard Sisk
You know what it was, it was weird. There was...somebody who wrote a book, back at the time. And the gist of the book was well did anybody really gets spit on? And whoever wrote the book said, no, he could find no no credible evidence for that. I don't know that that's so but for me, perhaps it was, oh, sometimes it gets strange looks and things like that. If anybody said anything, I don't really remember hearing it. I think, I think I would have brushed that off as you know, this is just some loudmouth know what he's talking about. Thank you for your service -- no, I don't...I don't recall that happening with us. Oh, a lot of buddies that I served with in Vietnam we sort of think that's, that's for the others. That's for the servicemembers who came after us -- Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan, that, that it's meant for them, it's not meant for us. It's kind of funny...you know, myself, and, you know, some buddies. If we hear that, whatever the circumstances may be and somebody, somebody's trying to be nice as thank you for your service. And we kind of look at it, you know, askance you know, like, what are you thanking us for? It's it's the, it's those who came after us that you should be aiming that at.
Drew Lawrence
You're about to hear part of my call with Rich when I asked him about how his unique background is a Marine and a reporter might give us insight into how military gratitude has changed over time. So you know, with that, what, in general, does that phrase mean? And can you tell us a little bit how you think it's changed over the decades.
Richard Sisk
how it's changed over the decades? You know...that's, that's hard. For those of us who were in Vietnam, it ended with Vietnamese clinging to the skids of the last helicopters that were leaving. And that's searing, that stays with you. I just don't know. Does anybody know? Iraq and Afghanistan...20 years, the way that ended...the bombing at the airport, people hanging to the sides of the C-17. Now, what does now with this thank you for your service mean following that? There's so many, so many veterans at the end, at the end, and Afghanistan, desperately tried, and are still desperately trying to evacuate the Afghans who served in the military or served the US in one way or another that were left behind. So how do veterans take to that phrase now? And again I don't know, I just don't know, Drew.
Drew Lawrence
The uncertainty surrounding the phrase may be the one and only constant among the veteran community. As Hill and Sisk said, there's often a sizing up that happens on the veteran side. Is this person genuine? Why are they saying it? For some veterans that we spoke to that assessment can carry completely different implications? When you hear the phrase "thank you for your service?" What does it mean to you? What do you first think about it? And how do you feel?
Kate Germano
Well, it's so interesting, because you say when I hear it, but I very rarely hear it.
Drew Lawrence
This is Kate germana. She's a retired lieutenant colonel who was relieved of command in 2015 despite improving metrics for female Marines under her command like shooting qualifications. The firing by the Corps sparked years of controversy over the way women are perceived in the military.
Kate Germano
I very rarely hear it and I am not super forthcoming with my service, I don't wear a lot of gear with logos or, you know, the Marine Corps emblem. And so, generally, when people find out that I served, they say things like, 'really? you know, I'm so surprised you don't look like a Marine' And then and that's where it ends and the Marine Corps is such a competitive culture anyway. And I've talked to 1000s of women who served in the Marine Corps in particular and the other services, but largely the Marine Corps who are uncomfortable with the title veterans, because they may not have had the opportunity to serve in direct combat missions, they may not have had the opportunity to even deploy. And I think there's a level of discomfort that women veterans feel that most male veterans don't feel, or at least they don't talk about it. Even doing things like parking in the veteran specific spots at like Lowe's. I think just raising that as a topic of conversation is valuable because it, it creates visibility in a way that a lot of women veterans may not feel like they have. But I mean, there is literally a level of discomfort with parking in the parking lot, because I think a lot of us, and I've talked to women veterans about this, I think a lot of us always presume when we get out to the car, after we go make the trip, that there's going to be a note saying, 'hey, this was veteran parking only' from someone who saw us maybe get out of the car. So there's just a level of discomfort, I think that's important to raise awareness about because our contributions are valuable. And I would say much like the rest of military culture that influences how veterans act when they get out of the service. That is absolutely the case. Like if I'm in the service, and I feel like my needs aren't being met because I'm perceived as being different or the other, then I am going to take that outside of the service with me. So I do think that that exists. I will say this, there has been great progress made by many of the services in the past seven years just since I retired from the military. But it's not across the board and the problem is, when you offer a solution to for example, the uniform issue or the combat gear issue, it's a bandaid. It is not the fix to the structural issues that would fix the problem between men and women in the military.
Drew Lawrence
When Germano talks about uniforms or body armor, she's referencing the decades long problem of the services not acquiring equipment that fit women properly, as opposed to their male counterparts. And for many veterans, those systematic and often historical issues have informed the feeling of what it means to them to be a veteran, perhaps deepening the hollowness of phrases like 'thank you for your service.'
Daniele Anderson
My name is Daniele Anderson, I am a Navy veteran, and also co-founder of a nonprofit called the Black Veterans Project. I attended the Naval Academy and subsequently spent about five and a half years as an officer in the Navy. When I hear...I've gone through many iterations of, you know, how I receive 'thank you for your service'...when I was in the military, in when I was you know, active duty and in uniform you know, I, I felt, you know, a sense of pride. And just a sense of like belonging and, and things like that, but I had so many varied experiences, you know, sort of out of uniform in some of the ways that I was treated...it felt very, it felt like a very unique juxtaposition, right? Because I think often the first thing that comes in our head, or the picture that comes in our head, when we think of a veteran, isn't a woman and often isn't a Black woman. And so, you know, while I was in uniform, I felt like thank you for your service began to kind of erode for me and then, you know, one of the things that I had feared to be quite honest when I was transitioning out of the military is I was really fearful of not having that uniform as, as a really kind of a shield.
Drew Lawrence
Anderson, who is also a historian by trade, told us about the Black Veteran Project's mission to share the legacy of Black troops and the injustice is they endured during and after their military service.
Daniele Anderson
A lot of folks don't think when they think of Veterans Day or even Memorial Day, the first thing you know, that they think of is, you know, they think of uniform, they think of thanking people they think of brave men and women who have gone and fought, the thing that we hope to bring to light is that there is you know, has has been sort of grave injustices is done to many folks including immigrants, but in this specific instance, Black veterans who often after World War II and on even to the present day, there was large scale benefit obstruction...owning homes at this point in time, you know, Black people writ large, not just Black veterans own less own their homes less than they did around World War II and so so there are direct like lines, you know, that that we can point to and there was a contract that was broken. When I think of Veterans Day I think of growing up with the stories of my father...I'm adopted and so he was older, and he's a Vietnam veteran. And when I was a kid, I didn't really understand the magnitude of this, but he would, you know, tell me stories of his experiences in Vietnam and, and then you had this compounding effect of you're Black and no one, no bank will, even though you've served this country, no bank will give you a home loan...the schools that you're trying to get into won't allow you to use your GI Bill, like all of these things are happening and so you know, when I think of Memorial Day and I think of Veterans Day, I think of all the brave men and women who have served this country, but I particularly think of the brave men and women who have served this country and who have not, you know, gotten the what was, you know, promised to them, but also what they are owed and what they legally deserve.
Drew Lawrence
And for some veterans, that phrase, thank you for your service, or service in general, has changed completely, not just because of their service in uniform, but because of what happened to them out of uniform.
Aquilino Gonell
I was born in the Dominican Republic, I came here when I was 20 years old. At that time, I was I didn't know much about America was a language. And I struggled for for few years because of that. But eventually, I rearranged my life and dedicated myself to become a better person. And that's what I did. I joined the military when I was 21 years old. Probably like a day before my birthday, my 21st birthday, and I woke up on my 21st birthday on Fort Jackson, to the beat of the drill sergeants throwing cans and making noises with the metal bar. That was my happy birthday, I guess.
Drew Lawrence
This is Aquilino Gonell. He's an Iraq War veteran. And after his service, he became a Capitol police officer. On January 6 2021, he sustained injuries and was attacked by the mob that descended on the Capitol in an attempt to disrupt the presidential electoral confirmation. And today he continues to be disturbed by the motivations for this guy violence.
Aquilino Gonell
I am grateful for this country that allowed me to grow, to learn a lot, to be where I am. But I also have given a lot, a lot of sacrifices, both overseas and in the United States, especially the latest which was defending the Capitol. I was in a tunnel for for most, almost four hours, and almost lost my life almost on each of those hours. Not once but multiple times and they don't want to believe me, I have the scare, I have the injuries, I have the video, the pictures. People need to realize that that day was bad. It was bad enough for me, it was bad enough for the other officers who where there. It may not have been bad at all the places, but we were risking our lives. The only reason why most of those political figures made it out of there...to safety...to their family was because of what we did at that entrance. We gave them the time to run away, we gave them the time to get to safety, we gave them gave them the time so they could go and hug their family and their sons, their wives...to our detriment because we sacrifice our body.
Drew Lawrence
And because of that experience for Gonell. Well the statement 'thank you for your service' becomes more than just meaningless.
Aquilino Gonell
For them to downplay that horrible day like nothing happened. A stab in the back it was as if, you know my sacrificing was in vain. You know, there will officer who did die as a result of that horrific day and to them it's like 'let's desecrate their sacrifice.' So before that, let's go on TV and say the platitudes...'thank you for your support' and then spin everything like nothing happened, you know...it hurts. Emotionally, physically it hurts. And when somebody says to me thank you for your service...if they are saying it genuinely...I hope so they aren't saying it. If they're not, then that's on them. I'll say that. It'll be easier if they insult me plainly because I know that they don't mean that because they don't support my service to this country. To be honest with you I've only been approached and talk to by two members of one party. And that was in almost two years that I- since January 6 happened and after my injuries and my appearances on TV, showing my videos, the pictures, they know what I've done for this country. So I know that they don't mean it. I know that they evade me when I'm walking down the hallways of the Congress. They go on TV and give me platitude thank you for your service or we are the party of law and order, the rule of law. We support the police, we back to blue. That said when it comes to January 6, we don't want to talk about it. Or we don't believe them. believe your own...believe this guy, not them. So they might as well just insult me plainly and I'll believe that. I don't believe anything they say. Not anymore.
Drew Lawrence
Thank you for listening to this special Veterans Day episode of Fire Watch. Stick around for our roundtable with my co-host Rebecca Kheel. We talked to Alex Horton of The Washington Post about his story on how Black troops and veterans missed out on a bid to replace one Army post's Confederate namesake. Thanks for listening.
Rebecca Kheel
My name is Rebecca Kheel, co host of Firewatch and your congressional reporter for military.com. Welcome back to our reporter roundtable. Here's what you may have missed since our last episode. Over the summer Congress passed landmark legislation to help service members and veterans affected by burn pits, the PACT ACT as you may recall and there's been a flurry of announcements as the Department of Veteran Affairs begins to implement that. Most recently on Monday, VA officials announced that veterans with cancer will be prioritized when they start processing benefits under that bill. And they also this week began screening veterans for potential ailments tied to burn pit exposure. Meanwhile, Military.com published the first installment of a three part series on traumatic brain injuries. The first story is an in depth feature that follows veterans who suffered brain injuries only to return home and face growing emotional instability and confusion, leading them down a road to suicidal ideation. Veterans who suffer mild TBI are taking their own lives at three times the rate of the general population, while those with moderate or severe injuries are taking their lives at five times the national rate. With that, I want to introduce our roundtable guests as always Joining me is Drew Lawrence and today we have Alex Horton, an Iraq War veteran and national security reporter for The Washington Post. Welcome guys and to our listeners, if we all sound tired, it is because we are recording the day after the midterm elections and many races are still uncalled so we were all up pretty late, but I hope we're all doing well.
Drew Lawrence
Well, I think you were probably up really late, Alex and I got really good sleep as people who don't generally cover politics, am I wrong Alex?
Alex Horton
Yeah, joke's on joke's on you, Rebecca...
Rebecca Kheel
I guess I chose the wrong beat.
Drew Lawrence
But no, I appreciate it Rebecca and Alex, I appreciate you being here. And especially we wanted to talk to you about this piece that you did earlier last month regarding something that we've covered here on Fire Watch and Military.com about renaming military bases across the country who were previously named for Confederate soldiers and enslavers and secessionists. And while you know many of the bases saw changes for people of color and for women, you focus on Fort Gordon, an Army base in Georgia, and talked about how black troops, black veterans, missed out on the bid to be named or be renamed for Fort Gordon.
Alex Horton
Yeah, so down at Fort Gordon the 10 finalists that the renaming commission selected for their shortlist. It was a pretty distinguished list of 10 folks. What was interesting about that is only one of them was white. It was Milton Lee, who was a soldier who served in Vietnam and received the Medal of Honor. The Nine others were either Black, Puerto Rican descent, one of them was a Comanche Indian, who was a code talker during World War II. So not only was this a distinguished list of soldiers throughout, you know, many periods of service, but it was also mostly minorities, and in one case, a woman of color. So that's the slate that the commission presented to the Augusta community. earlier this year...10 finalists. The Commission ended up with someone who was not on that list who Dwight Eisenhower, former five star general. So, you know, essentially what happened was the commission prepared this list, they went to the community who said...they looked at this and said, okay, yes, but we, we favored Eisenhower...the long and short of it is, you know, the Augusta community looked at this slate of 10 finalists and, you know, at the time, they were having a lot of internal discussions on the side that, you know, they wanted to select Dwight Eisenhower, who was a fixture in the, in the Augusta community when he came for his many golf outings at Augusta National. I think what's interesting too, is he's, he's a fixture to some people in the Augusta community. I think the most famous person associated with Augusta and has Augusta ties is James Brown. And if you walk around downtown, you see murals all over the place with his with his name and his and his face. But, you know, there were the movers and shakers of the community they, they liked the association of Eisenhower and they lobbied for that name at the last minute. And they were persuasive enough for the commission to to reject their own slate of 10 finalists and put Eisenhower on the name of for Gordon.
Drew Lawrence
And I kind of want to note and take a step back, because you started out with kind of the national backdrop to this story with everything that happened with George Floyd and Rebecca, feel free to to jump in to because there was a congressional element like where all this had started from and it was, you know, that was a really interesting tie in.
Alex Horton
Well I think this is a consequence of how the process was built out, you know, in the law, there wasn't a ton of language in the bill that suggested how this process would work. And when the Commission was created by Congress, they made the process themselves. And one of the things they look to is community involvement, you know, it wasn't the, the deciding factor, but it was an important factor, they wanted to make sure they navigated what they called local sensitivities. You know, maybe they were, you know, hometown heroes that they were, you know, were overlooking and canvassing for candidates. And I'll say, you know, when I when I spoke to people on the commission, in some instances, this was clear cut, for example, at Fort Rucker, which is the heart of the home to Army aviation. It was unanimous from the jump that it would be named after Michael Novosel who was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam, and so was his son, so apparently, from the start, the community was very clear that's what, who they wanted and the commission acted. But yeah, I think, you know, going back to George Floyd, and how this all stuff happened in the first place, you know, the Army was not immune to the conversation happening about race and the history of segregation and racism, and, you know, lack of progress for a lot of minorities, that's sort of woven into the fabric of laws and in society, you know, before and after the Civil War. So, you know, after, after he was killed by the police you know, we brought back this conversation in the country that we've had for the last few years, even before his his death, about, you know, how do we think about ourselves? How do we think and honor our history in our lineage? And in the Army, that meant Confederate lineage, in you know, many places. So that's how this bill came about. And I'll leave it to Rebecca to talk about the intricacies of the law, because that's not my my wheelhouse. But, you know, that's that's how I sort of started this, this whole process in the first place.
Rebecca Kheel
Yeah, well, I think I would second you in terms of how some of this was built into the process. Or we've talked, I think before about how the commission when it was created by Congress had bipartisan support. Part of getting that bipartisan support was making sure that the commission would solicit input from community stakeholders. And you know, the few people who did oppose it one of their arguments It was that it could upset local communities to take away the history of these bases, or however they phrased it at the time. So yeah, so I think that the commission had a balancing act as they, as they pursued this, because there probably is also more opportunities for Congress to weigh in, for example, they're going to have to find all these name changes.
Drew Lawrence
You know, there seems to be kind of this overwhelming irony backed in of the decision not to choose black veterans and black troops, especially with Fort Gordon. Can you talk a little bit about that irony and, and if you talked to any people who brought it up to you, in the first place.
Alex Horton
I didn't have to talk to too many people about this. Because, you know, as you point out, it's it's really self evident in a lot of places. You know, even when you talk about or look at the commission describing their process, you know, that they were very deliberate in some of their choices, at least for the finalists for the, for the installations. And they were not, you know, they were very aware of, of symbolism of legacy of sending a message. You know, in the in the case of Fort Gordon, they said, they singled out, you know, there was five black soldiers who were on the shortlist, they singled out two who they described as an answer to John Gordon's legacy, of, of protecting slavery of, of protecting, or, you know, protecting slavery and opposing reconstruction. So one of the one of the soldiers that the Commission singled out was Mildred Kelly, who enlisted in 1947, which is a year before the military was desegregated. And you can imagine the challenges she faced, and she climbed the ranks to become Command Sergeant Major, which is a tremendous accomplishment. And also Alexander Augusta, who was a black surgeon for an all black unit in the Civil War. And his white colleagues forced him out of that position, and he had to relocate somewhere else. And he went on to become a instructor at Howard University at the medical school there, which made him the first faculty member of any medical school, who was black in US history. So the commission pointed those people out deliberately to say, this isn't just about collecting names, and we just put it the process means something, the process, when these names were chosen in the first place, for the communities to choose Confederate officers, that was symbolic of their own beliefs and their own discrimination and this is an answer decades later. So the commission is very aware of that stuff. They also acknowledged that it would be a good idea to think about who was representative of those of those installations when it came to their to their jobs. You know, down in Fort Gordon, they have the cyber center, you know, that it was signals intelligence. So communications is a big part of for Gordon's mission. And they described that in the report among some of the finalists that that was their job, either in the Signal corps, or in the case of Charles Chibitty... He trained he trained at then camp Gordon, and he was a Comanche Code Talker. So obviously, they have a tremendous impact on the battlefield. You know, they're legendary. So there was this deliberate action to have the symbolic and have this historical precedent in all these picks. And then you get Eisenhower...you know, no one in this process had a bad thing to say about him. I mean, his legacy speaks for himself. You know, he's a five star general and he was a two term president. You know, he had forced desegregation down in Arkansas with with the 101st airborne you know, that was that was a big deal. Created the highway system, everyone, everyone loves Eisenhower. But his connection to forewarn is, is very tenuous. And I what I find interesting about that is is some people in the community and in Augusta you know, they talked about his connection to Augusta in Fort Gordon. But that is something apparently the commission missed entirely by leaving him off the list of 10 candidates for the for the base renaming. So I found that interesting that it eluded the commission itself. And then you see the sort of reach for justification in their report. When they when they talk to the media after they selected the candidates for each of the installations they said, 'Well, this is the place where he chose to have his farewell address as commander in chief to the troops.' He did that in the waning days of his presidency. That was a reach because he only visited Fort Gordon twice. That moment, was on after a couple of dozen trips for golf outings at Augusta National which is a couple miles away from Fort Gordon. You know, he took a he took the plane right down to Augusta, he took a helicopter to Fort Gordon, he made his speech, he got back on and he went to play golf all weekend, as he did, you know, numerous times in his presidency. And the only time other time he was at Fort Gordon was when he had a heart attack after he left the presidency. He was at Augusta National and had a heart attack there and he needed care at Fort Gordon. And then he died a few years later. So I think there's some sort of there's a local legend that, you know, Eisenhower on his golf trips, would spend a lot of time at Fort Gordon and I had found it just was not the case.
Rebecca Kheel
So Alex, what was the response to your piece?
Alex Horton
I think it was modest. You know, this is something that's, you know, depending on who you ask, to deeply report it, you know, it's, it's sort of a, you know, I think we chose to do this story. Because we wanted to see how the process went. And, and for Gordon was attractive as a reporting target, because I just felt that Eisenhower look like an outlier. And, you know, I turned out to be correct. On that one. You know, in Fort Liberty, you know, the new name for Fort Bragg, Eisenhower and Liberty are the only ones were, who were that were chosen, that were not finalists presented by the commission, which I found was interesting that, that the community essentially rejected whatever the commission presented to them. So I found it interesting, you know, you know, some people liked it. Some people questioned the whole process itself, you know, why are we changing these names? They've been like this forever, which is not, which is not the case, right? Like they've only been there since, you know, the 40s for many of them. So I think the process was was modest. It didn't, it didn't change the world with the traffic numbers, but you know, it found some committed readers. And, you know, it got me on a Military.com podcast, so...
Drew Lawrence
Yeah, and we're thankful for that, for sure.
Rebecca Kheel
Well, that was a great conversation. Thank you again, so much, Alex, for joining us. And thank you to our listeners, as always for tuning in. Be sure to tune in next time.
Drew Lawrence
If you liked this episode and you want to let us know, like rate and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. I also want to thank our guests, my co-host, Rebecca Kheel, and our executive producers, Zachary Fryer-Biggs and Amy Bushatz. And as always, thanks for listening and tune in next time.
